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Madgie
43 comments since 2 Jul 2010

We cannot rely on anything to keep us interested if we cannot reach them by representation.

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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010
Madgie,
Who is the "them" you speak of? What does representation mean? of what and to whom? how?

Can you expand your need to "rely on anything to keep us interested"?
Madgie
43 comments since 2 Jul 2010
Art goes forward because it can only contribute in interesting ways to things it either can’t understand or doesn’t like so much and while doing so those things are clarified and made popular. Reason goes on in the opposite direction because in the process of making decisions it wanders further and further from the reality of the situation. Still its important to be able to make informed decisions in order to get ahead otherwise we'd just be intuitive animals. The problem today is that art doesn't stimulate the kind of attraction in the the real world that can solve things like poverty and equitable food distribution because it has repeated several times behind the scenes in the time it would otherwise take the rest of the world to become interested. Emotions aside, if we bring reason into the equation in a society running on its last capitalist legs why should we be responsible with what we make from it? What are we really protecting when it is not reason but despair and unity that bridges the divide between art and humanity, and only if it is hidden inside a political formula.
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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010
Madgie,
You are such an artist??? I find it quite hard to know exactly what you are thinking and your logic. But I do really get your feelings.

1. You seem to think art is about clarifying and making popular new things, understanding previously misunderstood old things. I partly agree. BUT - picture Da Vinci painstakingly writing, drawing thinking, researching, even being utterly misemployed to create weapons of mass destruction. Yes he also made pretty pictures and advanced the technologies of art making, semi photographic techniques, Sfumato et al. he also gave us a few techno inventions - was this merely an "interesting" contribution to culture - no - his body of work shifted it for ever. Sadly including cluster bombs.

2. You seem to then say that decision making and reason in themselves are against this art process. Surely not - all art is informed, inspired by decision making - which colour, what mise en scene? tone? spacial effects, let alone political tragectory and impacts. It is far too wooly for me to accept that art is somehow relegated to subconscious processes and or emotional as opposed to rational logic. For one thing - who is doing the relegating? Which artists are accepting of this relegating? Da Vinci? Duchamp? I don't think so. While Duchamp was happy to say "There is no solution... there is no problem" he was a gamester right? In fact I think he was meaning - "don't worry - it's never a problem - it's just a solution in wolf's clothing@. and while so many great scientists and artists know that often the "solution" simply comes... as if by magic and intuitive/ subconscious processes - one should really not undermine the fact that in any given "issue" or "problem" solution one gives huge amounts of time thinking, musing, dwelling on the thing - meditating if you like - of course the solution comes as if by magic - - the eureka moment fill us with a big fat warm feeling that in Tarkovsky's words - acts as a "purging trauma" - worrying gets us nowhere and one must use meditative techniques that allow the logical pathways toward problem solution to simply "work" - one must trust in the neurological synapses to get on with it and do their thing. Getting caught up in worrysome "reasoning" is like worrying about worrying - the solutions will just come but must be informed by real research and ammassing of evidence and such.

I will write more about art and real world issues - my Cabbage patch (1978) changed the bylaw here in Wellington but more later ok.
Madgie
43 comments since 2 Jul 2010
Should we all be thinking and doing alone in caves and otherwise only be listening when its real? Is that representative of our time? I suppose it is, but its hard to ignore the fact sometimes and get on with it because art that is thoughtful is constantly forced to lie in order to survive. Its reasoning might be why should it opt to be prostituted off to a society when it has the power to rule the world. I think all art has a moral side and immoral art only appears when it couldn't express its moral side in a way that it would become recognized by common interest. If an artist cannot become interested in their position on moral grounds then a moral artist wouldn't be in that position in the first place. Either way the art becomes forced to hide behind a lie for its own survival and thus also its own benefit. I’m just saying that art jumping out of its lie and into reality is what is going to happen to art in the future, but god forbid I’d ever do anything about it. I do see what you are saying though, that it doesn't pay to be preoccupied with the fact that time doesn't stop and so the mind doesn't stop either. So instead of dwelling on that and destroying art in the process, it might pay to find ways to channel the mind in more 'playful' inventive ways that are informed and inspired by decision making and applying that to the current time.
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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010
Get out of that closet Madgie :)
Madgie
43 comments since 2 Jul 2010

.

Untitled-1-25
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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010
reminds me of a song...

UNTANGLING

My love's an arrow
through the mine fields
to you

Chorus
Untangl-ing,
I'm untangl- ing
to you (repeat)

We've both been
shot to shreds
on the battle field of life

Scar tissue,
baggage handling
remind me to divorse my wife

Chorus...
MR
218 comments since 20 Jul 2007
I think the we are Intuitive animals Madgie, not in danger of being so.

I have been an artist for most of my life, I have friends who are both artists at every conceivable level, and people who have no idea nor care about the arts, read ‘real world-general public’ Sadly, as in the community at large the second group is far larger than the first. So art has no chance to rule anything other than its own little world, however the influences it can have, and insights it can offer to, the greater community, read, 'real world-general public' is another thing. However much of this is being lost with pointless repletion's of fucking Duchamp and his Dada mates who surely did want to rule the world, by destroying art, and perhaps they were successful!
The ‘real world-general public’ can appreciate skilled art, and (probably even Duchamp and his mates the first time around) take anyone to look at a painting by Goya and they will all appreciate it in some form, take them to the permanent hang in say the CAG and they will most likely be wowing less and less as they progress through to the contemporary art. As a result contemporary art, regardless of what it is saying, is becoming harder and harder for the ‘ real world-general public’ to understand, and their resulting appreciation goes down with it, as does its ability to influence any change. So if you want to change the real world with what you have to say in your art you better make it readable by the ‘real world-general pubic’ But who wants to do that? All that does is potentially alienate you from those who hold power in the ‘Art world’ which takes me back to my first thought, if you want to effect change get some power!

So the problem lies more with anyone thinking art has the influence to solve issues like poverty, or more importantly those who rely on it so do so. No question art can influence the people who can potentially make those changes, but in reality less and less art is being made that they can understand or relate to. Dane Mitchell’s pile of rubbish just one good reason why the ‘real world-general public’ wont bother to look. The blinkered Naval gazing by people who run these competitions and possibly reject the most interesting works because they don’t fit the ‘Hang’ or choose those that are just mildly controversial enough (like DM’s pile of crap) to stir up interest but really nothing more, do little to help. But then if younger artists don’t find a way to get their message read by the ‘real world-general public’ then whose fault is that?

You don’t get noticed at an exhibition opening wearing all black, and the same applies to the art itself!

As B’art says ‘all art is informed, inspired by decision-making - which colour, what mise en scene? tone? Spatial effects let alone political trajectory and impacts' etc.

Looking back at, and understanding, art history rightly achieves much of this. But right now like no other time in recent history, young artists and young art historians need to wake up, stand up, and make history stop repeating for a while. Time to put away the tired old hangy thingy things and the overdone blank faced, or is that bored, photographic portraits that look down on the piles of polystyrene that have been lying around gallery floors for decades now, and make something exciting happen. Oh, and if you want to change the real world as well as the art world you better do it with some skill as well.
benjamin
1 articles & 212 comments since 30 Nov 2007

arts.guardian.co.uk/video/page/0,,1997689,00.html 

 

the 'we' that are intuitive animals should enjoy this... marcus coates' work is fucking brilliant imho

MR
218 comments since 20 Jul 2007
that is great!
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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010

I think most people can't make the connections to the real world as you say MR. that Duchamp actually made... he took urinal into gallery right. Real world into art zone. Then with his reverse conceptual readymade "use Remrbandt as an ironing board" he took it back out... there is a/the key.

In 88 or whenever it was I spoke at Ian Wedde's Now See Hear "art convention" I created a conceptual piece specifically to demonstrate the Art/Life divide - for us here in Aotearoa... I took an image from Te Arawa... a couple fucking on the old barge boards of a food store/ Pataka and brought it into the then 20th century... on the front of a Fischer and Paykel fridge. Later Ian recycled this with his now infamous Fischer and Paykel fridge and the MacCahon painting sitting side by side but I believe he missed the point... I then made the fridge which still ives in Coromandel... named it "Pataka" (then a museum in Porirua was named Pataka then I exhibited my Pataka in their Pataka... confused?!?) My one consists of a fridge with F&P logo and a shiny white relief carved couple copulating on the front. Art and life. Maori are a living cultural role model of a close communion between art/life. I then nearly managed to sell an art competition idea (bad in retrospect - I hate art competitions) to F&P to annually have artists create "artware" - (my trademark) as telecom do for the white pages - because why? because our life has been so fucking removed from the reality of love and life and nature that even our foodstores are sanitised meaningless logo spaces and we thereby have lost the connection to the environment of which we are part. Fridges are now starting to become more colourful and light hearted but still have eons to go I reckon.

I think Marcel's "Etand donne" - study given" is as much about the rape of the (mother) earth than anything else... well I like to read it that way.

You are right - mindless repetition of anything like MD is worthless unless it is a true hommage. And you are right about the still huge divide between mod. art and a sport mad, alochol fuelled, commercially shackled - lives of the mass of men and girls and boys and frogs and wetlands and and and and...

 

I think the whole notion of the gallery is in itself a large part of the segregationist problem and in this resepct I think Ian Wedde got it quite wrong... however much publicity resulted  Duchamp's reverse readymade can  be interpreted as a re-visioning of the gallery itself. Suddenly the gallery is at home, the street, the compnay office, the net, the TV station and no wonder Marcel felt inspired and positive about the likes of happenings and environmental art. I have taken this lead with my Cabbage patch 1978 and rADz - 1991-2000 where in both works I shifted the goal posts of the gallery and assumed that the place for my art was 1. a disused/abused  vaccant lot and 2. mainstream commercial terrestrial television advertising space. My 2000-2010 empowerment film making in community (here and in the UK) continues this theme where real world issues like poverty and alcohol damage to people's lives are my subject and we get media and community interest and hense change in the behaviours, beliefs etc. of all who touch the works - to improve real world problems. As Michael Smither and I say - we need to inspire younger artists into a powerful shift in environmental politics. My Cabbage patch is now seen as a 32 years ahead of its time CBD/urban community art garden that had a real place in changing real things - it changed the bylaw and now every woman and her bitch dog are making community gardens great... often as art, and world wide. Did this small act "borne of frustration" have a part in the rejuvenation our CBD/ "creative capital"? Who knows young and old art historians seem anuable to even ask the question but such research and study are necessary in the big picture need for change around the artist's role in culture. Timing is everything. Sometimes, many times one is ahead of the game, exposed. 

 Lesson... move the gallery into the real world - more and more and more. Rejoin the dots between the subject and the object.

By the by...It is very nice to have some older hand wisdom here on artbash - I appreciate it MR.

 

Art and artists need to wage a collective war against the oligarchy - to regain respect and place in the design and implementation of all aspects of life today and the future... Fuck sport and competitive commercialism - get out there and change the bloody world.

 

MR
218 comments since 20 Jul 2007
Indeed b'art.

If people really want to take something from the likes of Duchamp & co, I would suggest they start by having fun making their art as they did, and don't be scared to take the piss a bit.

I am already thinking about my "artware" piece!
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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010
Indeed MR. I mean aren't our very domestic dwellings such a perfect starting place? And aren't art galleries - as a place for art - possibly definable as "a wee little prison where we (the oligarchy) can keep them in their place?"
MR
218 comments since 20 Jul 2007
Ah, but oh how badly we want our work to be so imprisoned! Therein lies a big issue with the basis of this thread, how weak we are (and yes I speak for myself here) when our little objects are noticed and imprisoned by the oligarchs! If you so desire can you break down the walls if you are both inside and outside?
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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010
As Tarkovsky says... history is your quest ie. not the imediate so make records, ensure they are deposited for posterity - inevitably the world will catch up if your vision is correct. Money. acclaim, has sweet fa to do with it.
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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010
As Tarkovsky says... history is your quest ie. not the imediate so make records, ensure they are deposited for posterity - inevitably the world will catch up if your vision is correct. Money. acclaim, has sweet fa to do with it.
IMG2081
mr tourette
9 articles & 289 comments since 29 Jan 2009
As Tchaikovsky says...What I have set down in a moment of ardour I must then critically examine. Sometimes I must do myself violence before I can mercilessly erase things thought out with love. But he only said it once.
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b'art Homme
12 articles & 207 comments since 22 May 2010
God damn
MR
218 comments since 20 Jul 2007
Quoting b'art Homme:

As Tarkovsky says... history is your quest ie. not the imediate so make records, ensure they are deposited for posterity - inevitably the world will catch up if your vision is correct. Money. acclaim, has sweet fa to do with it.



That is so true! I often wonder how many artists look to the arts as a "career" other than a desire to do exactly that.


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